Well, like many people, I am pretty shocked at what happened at the end. What are all your thoughts? :mad:

Most BS of a result of a GP race....:mad:

Utterly pointless, utterly meaningless to introduce team order at this stage of the year, especially when Schumi is like 21 points in front.....

Quote from Patrick Head(William Tech. Director):
"I think for a team like Ferrari, when you've produced a car as brilliant as they have done, you have an obligation to Formula 1 and an obligation to the spectators and that's to provide a motor race"

Team Ferrari is just ridiculous.

Copied from another forum....i thought they all made some good points.

Michael Schumacher: "I was hoping that there would not be such an order, I didn't feel like it. I have to be honest to say now it was probably the wrong decision to win this race. If I had the chance to turn it around, I would probably do so but I cannot now."



Rubens Barrichello: "It is something I have been asked to do. I said nothing it was a team decision. I have just signed a two-year contract with them and I thought I had to show respect. I am going through a very good time in my life. This is the best season of my career. I am becoming a better person and a better driver so there is no point in arguing.



Ross Brawn (Ferrari technical director): "We lost the championship at the last race in 1997/8/9 and I remember at Jerez and Suzuka after two of those occasions, asking ourselves if there was anything we could have done differently during the season to influence it. Rubens hasn’t had the best of luck this year, which made it doubly difficult but the bottom line is that going into the race Michael had 44 points and Rubens had six."



Patrick Head: (Williams technical director): "It was the most cynical end to a grand prix I have ever seen in my career," said Head. "It might even be considered by some to be fraudulent. A team that produces such a brilliant car does not have to do such a thing."



Juan Pablo Montoya: "Michael has more than a 20-point lead and a car a second a lap faster than the rest, so what's he scared of?"



Flavio Briatore (Renault boss): "It was absolutely disgraceful. I've never seen anything like it in 14 years in this business. Formula 1 is much bigger than Ferrari and they should remember it. I shall wait with interest to see whether the FIA does anything about this."



Tom Walkinshaw (Arrows boss): "You have to question whether it is okay for that to happen anytime. But they were one and two and getting maximum constructors points anyway so it was about the drivers' championship and I don't think drivers should be allowed to give way. I think it's done a huge amount of damage. We've got a serious sport which normally runs very well and incidents like this do nothing for the credibility of anyone in it."



Gerhard Berger (BMW motorsport boss and former F1 ace): "There was no need for this so early in the season and the FIA should look into it. If you were a betting man, you wouldn't be happy."



Sir Stirling Moss (F1 legend): "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it.



Ian Phillips (commercial director, Jordan): "It was disgraceful. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It makes a farce of the sporting regulations."

Originally posted by Stirling Moss
The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. oh my :).

well uhh, I hate to sound dumb, but what happend?

Originally posted by toadee23
well uhh, I hate to sound dumb, but what happend?

Michael Schumacher was caught getting a hand job in the pits from Ralf.

I wonder what John thinks right now :)

Originally posted by LotusGT1
I wonder what John thinks right now :)
maybe you should see sc.net.... he's defending ferrari decision furiously.....

What an idiot...

Originally posted by LotusGT1
What an idiot...

he did have a couple of valid point.... but i stand by Montoya's comment. even if schumi went for a break for the next 2 races, he will still be on top of the champoinship board!!!

Yea but what moves Ferrari's mind and what makes team decisions is money. Lots of money so to keep that money coming they want all points to Schumacher so that losing the championship is out of th question. Well not out of the question, but all the points you can get help. It would really suck if he let Barrichello win, and then 11 races from now when the season is over Schumacher lost the Championship by 2 points! Then how would everyone look at this. I know Ferrari would be kissing there money goodbye. Though a valid point, Barrichello has to realize he's the second driver to Schumacher. So decisions like that are always going to go against Barrichello. Unfortunate, but how it goes. :(

McLarenFan your pathetic...everyone knows I made a public example out of you on Sc.net and you had NOTHING to show for it. Ask RacinManiac that I made many valid points which I'm going to share with you guys now.

I'de expect some of you to have that reaction(bring my name up) becasue well your jerks. You want my take on it.

What did Ferrari do to cause this uproar? They envoked team orders...same thing McLaren did in 98 with Coulthard and Hakkinen early on in the season with a commanding lead. Same thing every team has done and is "guilty" of but Ferrari recieve all this slack because why? They're in the spot light? They dominating the sport? The press have nothing better to right about.

Don't be a 'Media Whore' people. Only now I'm reading positive comments about the descision by Ferrari from the lieks of Frank Williams(the Boss) telling Patrick Head(employee) he has no place to talk about Ferrari like that. David Coulthard, one not known to Favour Schumacher or Ferrari came to their defense, and even Montoya.

Oh but the fans cried it's a disgrace, for what? Ferrari is a company and the boss gave the employee and order. Hav eyou ever disobeyed your boss? try it some time, I'de like to see you talk a big game when it's your ass on the line. Schumacher is loyal to the team, so is Rubens, you make this out to be an equivelent of murder.

I think some of you need to understand that F1 is a business, a business that spends $350 million a year to secure the title. You want Ferrari the team to risk that all for some one's feelings? Are you 6 years old? 21 years of drought might be the erason why they're so cautious. It';s smart strategy, and becasue of it they'll sew up the championship even earlier. Rubens signed on as a number 2, but he always made it his goal to beat Schumacher and for the first 2 seasons he DNF'de, poor results, and caused majour turmoil within Ferrari using the MEDIA as a weapon to fuel his arguements. Shit Schumacher's points ALONE clinched the both titles last year.

In my opinion he has only shown this year he is worthy of this seat, and he's the man/driver he is today because of those earlier seasons with Ferrari. What Rubens did to hand over a welll deserved win was a great jesture and proved to me he now races for the TEAM not for himself.

I know some of you are geniunely upset over the descision and you have everyright to be I undertstand why you are. But undertsand this...They're brokenm no rules, this is a company a business and I don't think the fans have the right to dictate how a business is run.

Let me leave you with this; Ferrari realized that even the most sound strategy can have it's consequences. Fans have to realize that the road to victory is cut throat some times and hard decision (in a business) is part of the it.

Very well said. :D

I was trying to get the same point across you just did it better!

umm yah guys racing is dollars, drivers championchips are more dollars, championship points go towards dollars. Its a business thing, the uhh, other driver guy has no chance of winning, Schuie does. Its common ****ing sense.

In Sweden you can no longer bid on F1 because of this.
If you placed your money on RB in Austria you won. Shumi and Rubens were the winners if you bid.

I'm a big Ferrari fan and I'm glad they are kicking everyones ass in F1. ;) However, I think that was the stupidest thing they could have done. :(

Key point is that this team order thing was used under different circumstances. 1998's race where Coulthard let Hakkinen pass was in AUSTRALIA, FIRST race of the year....no commanding lead there....:rolleyes: That was under the agreement of the driver made before the race. Where Hakkinen's lead was ruined by a bad called of the team to pit. Coulthard know Hakkinen had the race won, that's why he gave way. Which was the agreement between themselves who ever took the lead in the first corner and was in a position to win the race, WILL win the race.

If you look at the past incident where team orders were involved, all of them has a more valid reasoning than this one. 1999, Mika Salo gave Eddie Irvine a win in some race, why? Salo was a replacement driver for Schumacher, he was not in the position to even be IN the championship. Irvine was trailing in the championship, all the points count.

2001, Barrichello let Michael pass at the last turn in Austria(again), to get him second. Why? Because Coulthard, who was Michael's main Championship rival at the time and was very close to Michael and was winning the race. The championship lead is being threatened, team order was called upon to minimize the damage of which Coulthard can shorten the gap.

What makes this 2002 Austrian GP so different? Because neither of Ferrari's lead was under any threat. Michael has a 21 points lead into the GP, he has a car that's a second a lap faster than anyone else, he has already bagged 4 out of 5 races up to that point. The difference really, was either he will extend his lead to 27 points(finished 1st) or 23 points(finished 2nd) over his closest mathematic rival(Montoya). It is highly unlikely that Williams is going to find a second a lap in a short period of time, and unless Michael break his leg again, his lead is big enough to stretch it slowly over the next 11 races. There are afterall, 11 races to go, too early in the season to make such a call.

I didn't mean points lead...I meant lead in the race. Besides McLaren makes it well known that BOTH driver can fight for the championship. Ferrari makes it WELL known that there's 1 driver who fight's for the championship. Only other way to go against this is if Rubens had a smaller gap to Schumacher. 44 - 6, I say win the championship outright even sooner. To me Barichello isn't the reason I'm a fan of F1 or Ferrari.

it was pretty much a legal fix, what MS said to RB on the podium was just ridicules, he stated that he couldn't wait for the championship to be locked up. Basically meaning once he's guaranteed the championship then he'll start racing fairly...sad :(

You are not a fan of Rubens so he does not deserve to win? He is not in a championship fight so he has no right to win? That's bullcrap.......:rolleyes:

The circumstances was bad for this decision to take place, admit it John. Ferrari better hope the Williams or McLaren is going to make the Championship extremely tight until the last few races. Or else this will be a extremely stupid call.

I'm with RM on this one.

You gotta admit it John, or are you too baised to see i?

Most people realise that F1 is a business and that this was a business call, albeit a fairly unnecessary one. If this year is anything like last season, Ferrari will dominate. Like RacingManiac said, unless the race for the championship suddenly becomes tight, this will reflect poorly on them. Why? Because while a business, F1 is still a sport, a contest where the best driver takes the checkered flag. In that race, Rubens was the better driver of the two.

Originally posted by Nogger
I'm with RM on this one.

You gotta admit it John, or are you too baised to see i?

No take your head out of your ass for once see that I'm not.

Where'de I say that RM? All I implied was that the descision Ferrari made has little affect because it affect Rubens. I there's nothing wrong with that in my mind and just because I don't share your opinion doesn't make me anymore wrong then you are.

We had this conversation already RM, why are you bringing this up again, we both know where we stand.

Originally posted by 0-60
Most people realise that F1 is a business and that this was a business call, albeit a fairly unnecessary one. If this year is anything like last season, Ferrari will dominate. Like RacingManiac said, unless the race for the championship suddenly becomes tight, this will reflect poorly on them. Why? Because while a business, F1 is still a sport, a contest where the best driver takes the checkered flag. In that race, Rubens was the better driver of the two.

You're right it's as still a sport, and it will/has reflectde badly on Ferrari. I hardly doubt this changes things for true fans of the team. There's been more unessesary events in the past that didn't involve team orders, that are long forgotten. WHy is this any different?

Examples please.....for the unnecessary decision in the past.

And what exactly do you mean "it affects Rubens"? Because it affects Rubens so they don't need to care about it? What happen to the whole concept of F1 being a "Team Sports"? And don't give me that crap that Rubens is not doing any thing for the team. Sure he only has 12 points now. But his car let him down in 4 of the first 5 races before this race, you can hardly blame him for the car he drove huh?

The whole reason why Ferrari wants to win Championship is for its marketing appeal, and as this event clearly is a PR disaster, doesn't that have its own implication to the whole deal? Business end of the sports, half of it is about PR and image.....imagine what the PR department of the Scuderia Ferrari must be like after that Sunday race.....

Man, you keep on calling people children, look at yourself! In multiple posts you attack people just like a child yourself. Sure, as a Tifosi you might have a different opinion and sure you are welcome to have one but when you call it smart and tactical...
I'll leave it here. You think that way and since you back it up I respect that. But it doesn't mean that I support it.

Originally posted by RacingManiac
Examples please.....for the unnecessary decision in the past.

And what exactly do you mean "it affects Rubens"? Because it affects Rubens so they don't need to care about it? What happen to the whole concept of F1 being a "Team Sports"? And don't give me that crap that Rubens is not doing any thing for the team. Sure he only has 12 points now. But his car let him down in 4 of the first 5 races before this race, you can hardly blame him for the car he drove huh?

The whole reason why Ferrari wants to win Championship is for its marketing appeal, and as this event clearly is a PR disaster, doesn't that have its own implication to the whole deal? Business end of the sports, half of it is about PR and image.....imagine what the PR department of the Scuderia Ferrari must be like after that Sunday race.....

Exactly

That's a personal descision for me because Rubens hasn't done much for Ferrari. RM your right about this season, but I never made mention of I outlined that last 2 seasons of Rubens career at Ferrari. So don't twist things.

89 Suzuka Senna crashes into Prost in the LAST corner of the race of the season to clinch the title. You tell me how the fans reacted? The situation in my mind is worse becasue he upset McLaren becasue both cars didn't finish, his tactics were calculated for himself to win the championship. I imagine he did not ask permission to ram his teammate, there's NO honour in that. I ask you what is he remembered for? Does that stick out in your mind when you remember Senna? Do you particularly care? Every Senna fan I've run into doesn't.

This is much worse, and Schumacher is even guilty of it...that proves my point even more in 94 or 95 I beleive when he took out Damon Hill. Do people speak of it? Has it hurt Benneton, Ferrari? Those are more selfish horrible acts then this.

This was done out of a TEAM strategy where everyone accepted it. Things were saught through, out of respect to team orders laid down. I never said it hasn't damaged their image. I've said this I've seen the reaction. I just think it's do to a combination of opinion and passion.

I don't feel any worse then I did before the GP. ALthough according to Nogger this makes me biased in some way. After I've gone to great lengths to explain, he feels fit to jump the gun and call me Biased.

Oh and Nogger, give one example where I caleld some one a child on this board, as well as an example on my behalf that I've acted like a child (that's relivetn to this thread). Since I've given an example to support mine.

All that's being said is that what happened last Sunday wasn't racing, it was a form of legal cheating, and people are understandably upset because Rubans rightfully deserved the win. The money got in the way of F1 racing which really tarnishes the experience.

Originally posted by John
That's a personal descision for me because Rubens hasn't done much for Ferrari. RM your right about this season, but I never made mention of I outlined that last 2 seasons of Rubens career at Ferrari. So don't twist things.
...

This was done out of a TEAM strategy where everyone accepted it. Things were saught through, out of respect to team orders laid down. I never said it hasn't damaged their image. I've said this I've seen the reaction. I just think it's do to a combination of opinion and passion.

I don't feel any worse then I did before the GP. ALthough according to Nogger this makes me biased in some way. After I've gone to great lengths to explain, he feels fit to jump the gun and call me Biased.


How is Rubens supposed to do 'much' for Ferrari when he's very much an afterthought there. Michael gets the better car, the better feedback and so on. He's the one who gets preferrential treatment. It's not as if the two are on equal footing and Rubens just hasn't pulled his weight. The Austrian GP is a great example of this. Who's the one who holds up the other cars so Michael can win the race? That is of course when he's not being crashed into or something.

Sure, the PR line is that they accepted it. What is Rubens supposed to do? Ignore it, break his contract and get booted? And it's not as if Michael is going to say "no guys, that's alright, I can finish 2nd."

You are biased. You are passionate about Ferrari and you've said you don't really like Rubens. Therefore, your opinion cannot be objective.

I think DriverGT just summed it up really well.

The whole reason why Ferrari wants to win Championship is for its marketing appeal That's lame. :rolleyes: They want to win to be the world champions again, not so they can make a name for themselves and sell their cars. That's already happened. Ferraris primary concern has always been to be the world champions.

Originally posted by MBTN
That's lame. :rolleyes: They want to win to be the world champions again, not so they can make a name for themselves and sell their cars. That's already happened. Ferraris primary concern has always been to be the world champions.

That's a pretty naive perception, sure they care about the championship, but the main reason will always be money, in one way or another.

Originally posted by John
That's a personal descision for me because Rubens hasn't done much for Ferrari. RM your right about this season, but I never made mention of I outlined that last 2 seasons of Rubens career at Ferrari. So don't twist things.

89 Suzuka Senna crashes into Prost in the LAST corner of the race of the season to clinch the title. You tell me how the fans reacted? The situation in my mind is worse becasue he upset McLaren becasue both cars didn't finish, his tactics were calculated for himself to win the championship. I imagine he did not ask permission to ram his teammate, there's NO honour in that. I ask you what is he remembered for? Does that stick out in your mind when you remember Senna? Do you particularly care? Every Senna fan I've run into doesn't.

This is much worse, and Schumacher is even guilty of it...that proves my point even more in 94 or 95 I beleive when he took out Damon Hill. Do people speak of it? Has it hurt Benneton, Ferrari? Those are more selfish horrible acts then this.

This was done out of a TEAM strategy where everyone accepted it. Things were saught through, out of respect to team orders laid down. I never said it hasn't damaged their image. I've said this I've seen the reaction. I just think it's do to a combination of opinion and passion.

I don't feel any worse then I did before the GP. ALthough according to Nogger this makes me biased in some way. After I've gone to great lengths to explain, he feels fit to jump the gun and call me Biased.

Oh and Nogger, give one example where I caleld some one a child on this board, as well as an example on my behalf that I've acted like a child (that's relivetn to this thread). Since I've given an example to support mine.

But those were the act of Drivers, and that's on Schumacher and Senna's CV forever. Bennetton had nothing to do with it. Bennetton didn't order Schumacher to run into Hill at Adelaide, neither did Ron Dennis order Senna to run into Prost. It was the driver who made the call. I don't know about you, but both driver are suffering the consequences for it. Not to upset the Senna fan, if he is not dead, the critics will look at his "bad side" more serious, since he died, people just idolized him. Schumacher never really shake off the Hill ram, nor the Villeneuve ram.

AND THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TEAM ORDERS! And I wouldn't call them unnecessary decisions, drivers don't really make any decision when they do that, they do it out of instinct, the will of not wanting to lose.

Simply put, Schumacher is the number one driver for Ferrari and Rubens is the number two driver. Had the rolls been reversed than so would have been the outcome. And I'm sure everyone would still be bitching about it. I mean hey whats loosing two points anyways. :rolleyes:

If Ferrari wins this championship it will be there Fifth. They are on a roll! But hey, look at the Yankee's in the 20th century they won one world series every four years. Too much? Maybe but it happened and people don't bitch about that. So let Ferrari make there decisions that allow them to win.

0-60, honestly...I don't care I'm sick of explaining to you.

RM you said give an example of more worse case senerio. I did. I didn't say worse case 'team orders' senerio did I? No I didn't. My point is that it reflected badly on the team, I'm sure there was fans who were upset over it. Point is in the end it's forgotten, I mean there's people who still critisize it, but they really don't affect the team personal relations. Maybe we're argueing about 2 different things here I dunno. I'm just bringing up a more contrversial situation, that's been forgotten in time. This to will be.

And as far as Rubens is concerned I can't favour one driver over another, that makes me biased? Because that's what I'm getting from you. How is there a bias exactly, when it's most likely in his contract that yes he has to follow team orders yes Schumi takes presedence. It's in writing somewhere, and RUbens accepted it. So in affect my favourism really can't be seen as biased in that respect.

You want me to admit it something I already admitted to on SC.net? Fine, yes I would had preferred Barichello to win, I was just as shocked as you guys. But unlike you I accepted it because the strategy was always present, it's something they've always done, only this time it was more contraversial.

Originally posted by John
McLarenFan your pathetic...everyone knows I made a public example out of you on Sc.net and you had NOTHING to show for it. Ask RacinManiac that I made many valid points which I'm going to share with you guys now.


hey my being on sc.net was a one night stand. i dont want to be there more that i need to. since this site was up i've stop going there. tats why you notice i'd stop arguing with you. i did realise the MH and DC arrangements in australia in 1998 and i know they were wrong. i'm not a McLaren F1 fan (i still hate ron dennis).
thats why i said i stood by MOntoya's comment...


JPM: It is team orders. That's the way they work. It is disappointing, I would say, for Rubens. He has been working, and in the last few races you can see he has been starting to out-pace Michael and he has been really strong. I really felt he deserved this. Michael, when you really think about it, doesn't really have any challenge in the championship. I am running second and we have done six races and he is already more than 20 points ahead of me. And they are maybe a second a lap clear on us, so what they are nervous about I don't know. But it is a team decision, I am sorry for Rubens, and he did deserve it.

go to sc.net and look.

like my avatar said.....:D

Nogger are you on sc.net? Whats your name there?

Originally posted by John
Nogger are you on sc.net? Whats your name there?

Nogger...

Can someone please explain to me what exactly happened? Did Rubens let Schumaker pass so that he could get the win? or what was it?

Originally posted by electronlude
Can someone please explain to me what exactly happened? Did Rubens let Schumaker pass so that he could get the win? or what was it?

Rubans dominated the entire weekend, and he lead through the whole race and right at the very end of the race, he was ordered to let Schumacher by to get the win.

Originally posted by DriverGT


Rubans dominated the entire weekend, and he lead through the whole race and right at the very end of the race, he was ordered to let Schumacher by to get the win.
Oh ok now the thread makes sense. Thanks.

Barrichello won it fair and square like real men do, but he just didn't get 10 points in the chapionship. Team Ferrari suffered it's most humiliating defeat ever in F1.

Originally posted by Arcanjo
Barrichello won it fair and square like real men do, but he just didn't get 10 points in the chapionship. Team Ferrari suffered it's most humiliating defeat ever in F1.

100% agreed....

here's an interesting POV from an american........

"The most pitiful aspect of Sunday's race is the behavior of Rubens. To stand on the top step of the podium, accept the victory cup, and sit in the winner's chair at the press conference shows he was taking orders from Michael. He should have let Michael get booed on the top step of the podium, and let him feel humiliated in the center chair on international television." Taylor McCormick, USA

"While the Austrian result left an undeniably dirty taste in the mouth, if actions like this are outlawed teams will as, Ross Brawn I believe said, fix the result with a poor pit stop or another method. At no time did I see Schumi do other than shadow Barrichello and at no point did he make a serious effort to get past him. At present Alex Yoong has a better chance of winning a GP than Rubens." Martin Feldwick, Norfolk, UK

[crying] lol Huraghahahhahahahaha...... i cant control myself. although alex's malaysian, i felt he didnt deserve to be in F1 at all....

try this one for a good laugh.........

"I wish to protest in the strongest possible terms about the Barrichello disgrace on Sunday. I had a large bet on Barrichello and am naturally outraged." Ken Chadwick, UK

"Formula 1 was not conceived for the purpose of betting. If you want that try horse racing. And besides remember the rule: "Never bet on anything that can talk"." David Mingay, New South Wales, Australia

moral-dont gamble....

Exactly...those people are making the law suit remind me of people who CAN sue someone just because they can.

Did you hear about the woman ni the US who won first Prize in a contest. She thougt she won a Toyota. But the prize was infact a 'toy yoda' hahahaha. She sued them because she thought she was playign to win a car. So she sued them for enuf money to buy a Toyota. Just horrible.

HUargghhhahahahahhahaha...... well at least she got what she wants. no real loss there...:)

Originally posted by John
Exactly...those people are making the law suit remind me of people who CAN sue someone just because they can.

Did you hear about the woman ni the US who won first Prize in a contest. She thougt she won a Toyota. But the prize was infact a 'toy yoda' hahahaha. She sued them because she thought she was playign to win a car. So she sued them for enuf money to buy a Toyota. Just horrible.

Wasn't that the woman who was working at a Hooters club? haha, it was pathetic...